The defendant appealed against a confiscation order, challenging the standard of proof applied by the judge. Held: The judge was entitled to include in his consideration, the evidence given at the trial as well as that on the confiscation application. He was to apply the civil standard of proof. That power was in 71(7A), which … Continue reading Regina v Levin: CACD 29 Jan 2004
The defendant admitted conspiring to supply cannabis on the basis that he had derived no financial benefit from his involvement in the conspiracy, although he had been promised andpound;200 for his role in transporting a sum of money for the purchase of the drugs. He had also driven a van in which the drugs were … Continue reading Regina v Lunnon: CACD 2004
The court had adjourned its proceedings in the absence of the defendant, so as not to fall foul of the requirement that a confiscation inquiry must take place within six months of conviction. The defendant appealed. Held: The court could exercise its common law power to adjourn. The statutory power could only be exercised where … Continue reading Regina v October: CACD 27 Feb 2003
When a court decided that an offender had benefited from Drug trafficking, it had to first to calculate the amount of benefit to be recovered from the defendant. In making that assessment, the court had to look to the assumptions in the section. The court should not use other assumptions unless there was evidence before … Continue reading Regina v Williams (Errol): CACD 11 Jan 2001
Citations:  EWHC 953 (Admin) Links: Bailii Statutes: Drug Trafficking Act 1994 42 Jurisdiction: England and Wales Criminal Practice Updated: 07 May 2022; Ref: scu.226869
The defendants appealed confiscation orders for drug trafficking where there had been a finding that of the tablets sold as ecstacy, probably only one tablet in a million was actually a class A controlled drug. Held:The Act required there to be shown that the defendant had ‘received any payment . . . . In connection … Continue reading Regina v Metcalfe and Another: CACD 21 Dec 2004
The defendants had been charged with four conspiracies, each of which was indicted as a conspiracy to commit offences under the 1994 Act on the one hand and under the 1988 Act on the other. The crown accepted that for a conviction for the laundering of the proceeds of drug trafficking, it was necessary to … Continue reading Regina v El-Kurd: CACD 2001
The court discussed why marginal notes are not to be used as an aid for stautory interpretation: ‘I am aware of the general rule of law as to marginal notes, at any rate in public general Acts of Parliament; but that rule is founded, as will be seen on reference to the cases, upon the … Continue reading In re Woking Urban District Council (Basingstoke Canal) Act 1911: CA 1914
Appeal against refusal of stay of execution of confiscation order under 1994 Act. Citations:  EWHC 2221 (Admin) Links: Bailii Statutes: Drug Trafficking Act 1994 Jurisdiction: England and Wales Criminal Practice Updated: 04 May 2022; Ref: scu.244852
The Court rejected the applicant’s contention that the proceedings involved a ‘criminal charge’ and resulted in the imposition of a penalty or punishment. The forfeiture was preventative and not a penal sanction. Accordingly it was permissible that, pursuant to section 43(3), the standard of proof required to justify forfeiture was that applicable to civil proceedings. … Continue reading Webb v The United Kingdom: ECHR 10 Feb 2004
Avory J said: ‘Headings of sections and marginal notes form no part of a statute. They are not voted on or passed by Parliament, but are inserted after the Bill has become law. Headnotes cannot control the plain meaning of the words of the enactment, though they may, in some case, be looked at in … Continue reading Rex v Hare: 1934
Two women parties used funds generated by a joint business venture to buy a house in which they lived together. It was vested in the sole name of the plaintiff but on the understanding that they were joint beneficial owners. The purpose of the arrangement was so that false benefit claims could be made to … Continue reading Tinsley v Milligan: HL 28 Jun 1993
A substantial confiscation order was made with respect to money seized from the applicant on the ground that customs officers believed the money was directly or indirectly the proceeds of drugs trafficking and/or was intended for use in drug trafficking. The applicant contended that a court, when considering whether to make a forfeiture order in … Continue reading Butler v United Kingdom: ECHR 27 Jun 2002
An order to restrain funds was available here though foreign proceedings were in rem. Citations: Times 04-May-1994 Statutes: Drug Trafficking Offences Act 1986 Jurisdiction: England and Wales Criminal Practice Updated: 28 April 2022; Ref: scu.81963
The court’s ability to make an order under the Act required that order to be made before the principle sentence was handed down. Once that had happened it was too late to make an order. Here the prosecution had not at first sought an order, and when it came to do so, the judge had … Continue reading Regina v Moss: CACD 3 Apr 2001
Although a court normally has the power to determine when and how to deal with its own cases, a Crown Court dealing with an application for confiscation of assets under the Act, had to determine the case within the six month time limit unless it was satisfied that the circumstances were exceptional and an adjournment … Continue reading Regina v Lingham: CACD 2 Jun 2000
It was not a breach of a prisoner’s human rights to impose a sentence of imprisonment on a failure to comply with a confiscation order made in a drugs case. The transfer of the burden onto the defendant was not in breach of the equality of arms provisions in the convention, nor of the imposition … Continue reading Regina v Malik: CACD 30 May 2000
An interim receiver under the Act was primarily appointed to preserve the assets of the defendant to prevent dissipation, and not to maximise them so as to realise greater sums for the purposes of any eventual confiscation order. He was answerable first to the court, and the court should not withdraw its control to such … Continue reading In Re P (Restraint Order) (Sale of Assets): CA 2 Aug 1999
Judges: Wilkie J Citations:  EWHC 2751 (Admin) Links: Bailii Statutes: Drug Trafficking Act 1994, Criminal Justice Act 1988 Jurisdiction: England and Wales Criminal Sentencing Updated: 05 April 2022; Ref: scu.245977
The defendant had been convicted and made subect to a confiscation order in 1996. A final order for enforcement was made in late 2002. The defendant said the delay in the enforcement proceedings was a breach of his right to a trial within a reasonable time. Held: The reasonable time guarantee afforded by Article 6.1 … Continue reading Lloyd v Bow Street Magistrates Court: Admn 8 Oct 2003
Each applicant had been subject to confiscation in criminal proceedings relating to drugs offences. They complained that the legislation had reversed the burden of proof. Held: ‘it was not incompatible with the notion of a fair hearing in criminal proceedings to place the onus on each applicant to give a credible account of his current … Continue reading Grayson and Barnham v The United Kingdom: ECHR 23 Sep 2008
The appellant had completed that proportion of a total of 22 years’ imprisonment, which he was required to serve for drug trafficking offences. But he remained in prison serving a default term for failure to pay the whole of the sum of pounds 3,458,806, which he was required to pay by virtue of a confiscation … Continue reading Telli v Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office: CA 21 Dec 2007
The applicant sought assistance from the local authority. He suffered from spinal myeloma, was destitute and an asylum seeker. Held: Although the Act had withdrawn the obligation to provide assistance for many asylum seekers, those who were infirm and whose infirmity was not a consequence of their destitution, had not been excluded. Only able bodied … Continue reading Westminster City Council v National Asylum Support Service: HL 17 Oct 2002
Each defendant appealed against confiscation orders made when the sentence imposed was an absolute or conditional discharge. They said that Clarke made such orders unlawful. Held: The decision in Clarke was a difficult limitation on the court’s discretion: ‘there are cases in which the combination of an order for discharge with a confiscation order represents … Continue reading Regina v Magro: CACD 8 Jul 2010
In each case the defendant sought to resist European Extradition Warrants saying that an order would be a disporportionate interference in their human right to family life. The Court asked whether its approach as set out in Norris, had to be amended in the light of the case of ZH. Held: HH and PH’s appeals … Continue reading HH v Deputy Prosecutor of The Italian Republic, Genoa: SC 20 Jun 2012
Judges: Sir John Thomas P, Cox, Kenneth Parker Jj Citations:  EWCA Crim 2437,  2 All ER 121,  Crim LR 415,  1 WLR 2014,  WLR(D) 332,  1 Cr App R 21 Links: Bailii, WLRD Statutes: Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996 29, Drug Trafficking Act 1994 15 Jurisdiction: England and … Continue reading YDG and Another, Regina v: CACD 20 Nov 2012
Balancing Rights of Prisoner and Society The appellant had been convicted of the murder of three police officers in 1966. His tariff of thirty years had now long expired. He complained that material put before the Parole Board reviewing has case had not been disclosed to him. Held: The appeal failed (by a majority). The … Continue reading Roberts v Parole Board: HL 7 Jul 2005
A previous conviction of the defendant for a drugs related offence was admissible on a civil application for the forfeiture of cash said to represent the proceeds of drug trafficking under the section 43(1). The court observed that the circumstances in which similar fact evidence would be admitted in a criminal trial were closely circumscribed … Continue reading Regina v Isleworth Crown Court ex parte Marland: Admn 28 Oct 1997
These appeals concern the statutory provisions governing the eligibility for compensation of persons convicted of a criminal offence where their conviction is subsequently quashed (or they are pardoned) because of the impact of fresh evidence. It was argued that the failure to make payment amounted to a denial of the right to the presumption of … Continue reading Hallam, Regina (on The Application of) v Secretary of State for Justice: SC 30 Jan 2019
Civil recovery orders had been made against the applicant. He had been accused and acquitted of drug trafficking allegations in Europe, but the judge had been persuaded that he had no proper explanation for the accumulation of his wealth, and had rejected his evidence as unreliable. Held: The defendant’s appeal failed. The making of an … Continue reading Gale and Another v Serious Organised Crime Agency: SC 26 Oct 2011
Appeal against conviction for entering into an arrangement for the retention of criminal funds. The defendant said that at the time of the arrangement there were not yet any criminal funds in existence. A had set up websites intending to con visitors selling non-existent cut price insurance. B opened bank accounts for A to be … Continue reading GH, Regina v: SC 22 Apr 2015
It does not necessarily follow from the mere possession of drugs that a person is not a mere minder or custodian Lord Woolf of Barnes LCJ, Rougier, Bell JJ  EWCA Crim 115,  1 Cr App R (S) 79 Bailii Drug Trafficking Act 1994 2 Cited by: Cited – Mackle, Regina v SC 29-Jan-2014 … Continue reading Regina v J: CACD 4 Jul 2000
The court was considering the terms of a confiscation order. It decided to postpone the decision beyond the six month limit. Questions had arisen about the apparent shift of the burden of proof. Two cases were due to be heard by the Court of Appeal which would affect the issue before the court. Held: The … Continue reading Regina v Jagdev: CACD 31 May 2002
Evidence from 3rd Party Torture Inadmissible The applicants had been detained following the issue of certificates issued by the respondent that they posed a terrorist threat. They challenged the decisions of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission saying that evidence underlying the decisions had probably been obtained by torture committed by foreign powers, and should not … Continue reading A and others v Secretary of State for the Home Department (No 2): HL 8 Dec 2005
(Jamaica) The defendant appealed his conviction for murder saying that the admission of an unsworn statement by one witness and the non-admission of another similar statement who did not either attend court was unconstitutional. He shot the victim 13 times with hollow point bullets. He claimed self defence, and drove straight to the police station … Continue reading Grant v The Queen: PC 16 Jan 2006
The claimant was responsible for recovering money under the 2002 Act, and alleged that the first defendant had been engaged in a mortgage fraud. Held: To succeed in such a claim for recovery the Claimant must prove, ‘on a balance of probabilities’, that the matters alleged to constitute unlawful conduct occurred. The court had a … Continue reading Assets Recovery Agency v Olupitan and Another: QBD 8 Feb 2007
The judge when sentencing the offender set a timetable for the purpose of determinations under the 1994 Act, requiring disclosure of assets and expenditure by the defendant within 28 days and a prosecutor’s statement within 28 days thereafter. Held: Nevertheless, there had been a breach of section 3 because the court had failed to specify … Continue reading Regina v Davies: CACD 22 May 2001
 EWCA Crim 3553 Bailii Drug Trafficking Act 1994 31(4) England and Wales Cited by: Cited – Gibson v Revenue and Customs Prosecution Office CA 12-Jun-2008 The claimant’s husband had been made subject to a criminal confiscation order in the sum of pounds 5.5 million. She now sought to appeal an action against life policies … Continue reading Ginwalla, Regina v: CACD 8 Dec 2005
The claimant’s husband had been made subject to a criminal confiscation order in the sum of pounds 5.5 million. She now sought to appeal an action against life policies in which she claimed a 50% interest. Held: Despite the finding that she had some awareness of her husband’s activities, the claimant was entitled to keep … Continue reading Gibson v Revenue and Customs Prosecution Office: CA 12 Jun 2008
The court considered the ambit of the discretionary grant of a restraint order, where the proceeds of crime had been transferred to a company. Held: Ouseley J said: ‘In my judgment the real question which a judge faced with an application for a restraint or receivership order is whether the order of the extent sought … Continue reading In Re D: Admn 2006
The appellants challenged decisions of the VAT and Duties Tribunal after seizure of their goods, and in particular whether the cases had been criminal or civil cases and following Roth, whether the respondent’s policy had been lawful and proportionate. Held: The present procedure does not involve the criminal courts and the absence of any criminal … Continue reading Gora and others v Commissioners of Customs and Excise and others: CA 11 Apr 2003
Each defendant challenged the way he had been treated on revocation of his parole licence, saying he should have been given the opportunity to make oral representations. Held: The prisoners’ appeals were allowed. Lord Bingham stated: ‘While an oral hearing is most obviously necessary to achieve a just decision in a case where facts are … Continue reading Regina v Parole Board ex parte Smith, Regina v Parole Board ex parte West (Conjoined Appeals): HL 27 Jan 2005
The husband and wife divorced and a property adjustment order applied for. The husband had been convicted and a drugs proceeds order made under the 1994 Act. The order had not been satisfied, and the receiver applied for money from the matrimonial property. Held: The two Acts gave no indication that either was to take … Continue reading H M Customs and Excise and Another v MCA and Another; A v A; Re MCA: CA 22 Jul 2002
The defendant had been tried for the murder of two men by shooting them at a party. He was identified as the murderer by three witnesses who had been permitted to give evidence anonymously, from behind screens, because they had refused, out of fear, to testify should their identities be disclosed. He now said that … Continue reading Regina v Davis: HL 18 Jun 2008
The applicants had been made subject of anti-social behaviour orders. They challenged the basis upon which the orders had been made. Held: The orders had no identifiable consequences which would make the process a criminal one. Civil standards of evidence therefore applied, and hearsay evidence was admissible. Nevertheless, the test as to whether it was … Continue reading Clingham (formerly C (a minor)) v Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea; Regina v Crown Court at Manchester Ex parte McCann and Others: HL 17 Oct 2002
The defendants appealed from conviction for offences under the 1911 Act. They were supporters of an organisation seeking to prevent nuclear war, and entered an Air Force base attempting to obtain information they would later publish. They pursued a campaign of non-violent civil disobedience. The judge had refused to allow cross examination and evidence concerning … Continue reading Chandler (TN) v Director of Public Prosecutions: HL 12 Jul 1962
The court was asked how to resolve the conflict between a public policy imperative to deprive offenders of the fruits of their crime and the requirement that dependants are provided for after divorce when the only funds available for both are the same? The CPS appealed against an order distributing a capital sum to the … Continue reading Crown Prosecution Service v Richards and Richards: CA 27 Jun 2006
The claimant sought equal pay with other, male, warehouse operatives who were doing work of equal value but for more money. The Court of Appeal had held that since other men were also employed on the same terms both as to pay and work, her claim failed. Held: The claim was not disbarred in this … Continue reading Pickstone v Freemans Plc: HL 30 Jun 1988
The defendants appealed against confiscation orders on the basis that in various ways, the Crown had failed to comply with procedural requirements. Held: The courts must remember the importance of such procedures in the fight against crime, and must not allow procedural or technical failures to defeat that purpose. Courts should rather look to see … Continue reading Sekhon, etc v Regina: CACD 16 Dec 2002
The defendant had been lured into the UK by the unlawful acts of customs officers. He claimed abuse of process. Held: The category of cases in which the abuse of process principles can be applied is not closed. A customs officer committing an offence alongside the defendant did not necessarily make thereby make a prosecution … Continue reading Regina v Latif; Regina v Shahzad: HL 23 Jan 1996
The defendant had been convicted of drugs offences, and sentenced under the 1994 Act. The gains he had made exceeded his then assets. Later he acquired further property honestly, and the Court now considered whether those assets could be taken to cover the earlier shortfall, by allowing for them when issuing a certificate to increase … Continue reading Peacock, Re: SC 22 Feb 2012
The applicant appealed against a confiscation order made on the basis of evidence obtained for and given in a trial that he had profited from the importation of cannabis. He had not faced trial on an associated charge, but had been convicted of conspiracy on the importation of heroin. Held: The court need not rely … Continue reading Briggs-Price, Regina v: HL 29 Apr 2009
Extension oh Human Rights Beyond Borders The appellants complained that the system set up by the respondent where Home Office officers were placed in Prague airport to pre-vet applicants for asylum from Romania were dsicriminatory in that substantially more gypsies were refused entry than others, and that it was contrary to the obligations of the … Continue reading Regina v Immigration Officer at Prague Airport and another, ex parte European Roma Rights Centre and others: HL 9 Dec 2004
The applicants had been imprisoned and held without trial, being suspected of international terrorism. No criminal charges were intended to be brought. They were foreigners and free to return home if they wished, but feared for their lives if they did. A British subject, who was suspected in the exact same way, and there were … Continue reading A v Secretary of State for the Home Department, and X v Secretary of State for the Home Department: HL 16 Dec 2004
The defendant had been convicted of involvement in a substantial VAT fraud, and made subject to a confiscation order. He was made subject to a confiscation order in respect of the amounts lost to the fraud where he was involved, but argued that the court had made each of 16 defendants liable for the full … Continue reading May, Regina v: HL 14 May 2008
The defendant appealed against confiscation orders made under the 2002 Act. He had bought a flat with a substantial deposit from his own resources, and the balance from a lender. That lender was repaid after he took a replacement loan. He was later convicted of having misled the first lender in his application. The judge … Continue reading Waya, Regina v: SC 14 Nov 2012
The court considered the proper approach for the court to adopt, and the proper orders for the court to make, in confiscation proceedings where a number of criminals (some of whom may not be before the court) had between them acquired property or money as a result of committing an offence for which all or … Continue reading Ahmad, Regina v: SC 18 Jun 2014
The appellant had been found to have received criminal proceeds along with another. He appealed against an order making him liable for the full amount. Held: The appeal failed. The defendant’s argument did not face the finding that he had been acting jointly with his co-defendants. ‘The committee cannot, however, regard it as disproportionate to … Continue reading Regina v Green: HL 14 May 2008
The claimants served proceedings by fax. The defendants denied that it was effective saying that they had not confirmed that they were instructed to accept service or that as required by the rules they had confirmed that they would accept service by fax. Held: The service had not been valid. The claimant effectively argued for … Continue reading Brown and Others v InnovatorOne Plc and Others: ComC 19 Jun 2009
Conviction of offences of being concerned in the importation of controlled drugs, namely cocaine, ecstasy and amphetamine. McCready was sentenced to 18 years imprisonment. Complaint that no adjournment before confiscation order. . .
The claimant sought to assert race discrimination by the Labour Party in not selecting him as a political candidate. The defendant, chairman of the party appealed.
Held: A political party when selecting candidates was not acting as a . .
The court was asked to say how it was to be shown that the defendant had profited from drug trafficking.
Held: It was for the prosecution to establish to the civil standard that the defendant had made payments out of the funds alleged to have . .
The two defendants appealed against the increase of compensation orders made to reflect assets received properly after their original sentencing. . .
Application for certificate of inadequacy. . .
(From High Court of Justiciary (Scotland)) The defendant had been convicted of drug trafficking. He complained that the following confiscation order had infringed his human rights being based an assumption of guilt and which was incompatible with . .
The appellant had been sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and a confiscation order pounds 5.4m with six years in default. Small payments were made later by his receivers, but the interest had taken the total sums due over pounds 8m at the time of . .
‘The issue in the case is whether the words ‘the said sum . . as was due at the time the period of detention was imposed’ in section 79(2) of the Magistrates’ Court Act (MCA) 1980 should be construed in the case of confiscation orders made under the . .
The court held that they were not precluded by an application made under the 1994 Act against assets of the husband from making an order in favour of the wife under the 1973 Act. The court discharged the Receiver appointed under section 29(2) DTA . .
Although the rules specified that a form should be used when making application to extend the time for which money could be held pending an application under the Act for its forfeiture, there was no enforceable duty to prove that the form had been . .
The central issue in these proceedings has been the question of who is the beneficial owner of a property . .
Figures agreed in confiscation proceedings are conclusive at all stages. . .
No guideline for laundering of proceeds of drugs – too wide variation. . .
The conversion of cash from one currency into another can of itself constitute the offence of facilitating the retention or control of the benefits of drug trafficking irrespective of the purpose of the conversion. The words in the statute are not . .
In the absence of evidence from the defendant as to the value of the drugs found, where the quantity was substantial it was right to apply some discount, in this case twenty per cent, on the basis that he would have received some wholesale discount, . .
Richardson, was described as ‘an important member of the team’ with a ‘highly significant role in the whole enterprise’ of importing drugs to a street value of andpound;50 million, that is, 44 kgs of cocaine on one occasion and 144 kgs on another, . .
When considering a confiscation order which would affect the wife of the accused, and where property is held in joint names, the court should start with the prima facie position as to where the beneficial interests lay and then go on to find whether . .
The making of a confiscation order is part of sentencing. Such an order might be delayed provided the determination was made within six months of conviction. If in the circumstances of the case of an adjournment beyond that period was necessary, . .
The defendant had been made the subject of a confiscation order. He appealed, saying that in calculating the assets, he had taken the gross value of his property without allowing for an outstanding mortgage.
Held: The mortgage advance was not . .
The defendant having been convicted of drug offences was subject to an application for confiscation of his assets. For various reasons, including the illness of the judge, the decision was not made within the 6 month period. The court held that the . .
The claimant’s husband was a defendant in drug trafficking proceedings. Anticipating a claim against family homes, the claimant sought a declaration that she held a 50% interest in them. . .
The defendant having pleaded guilty to a serious drugs offence now appealed a confiscation order. He claimed that he had been misled that the prosecution would not request an inquiry for this purpose, and during the course of the hearing the . .
The court was asked, where a defendant fell to be subject to an increased confiscation order under the 1994 Act, where at the time of the original order his assets had been inadequate to meet the sum of benefit found to have been received, but he . .
The Crown appealed a decision that a conviction under subsection 2 required proof that the money the disposal of which the defendant was accused to have assisted was in fact the proceeds of drug trafficking.
Held: Subsections 1 and 2 were . .
When the customs seized cash under the section on the suspicion that it might be the proceeds of drug trafficking, the time limit imposed by the section for the return of the money if continued retention was not authorised, was strict. They had 48 . .
This is an appeal on preliminary points of European Union and domestic law regarding the circumstances in which damages may be recoverable for failure to comply with the requirements of the Public Procurement Directive (Parliament and Council . .
The defendants faced charges under the two Acts. They raised as a preliminary issue whether it is necessary for the Crown to prove that the property being converted was in fact the proceeds, in the case of the 1994 Act, of drug trafficking and, in . .
The defendant appealed aganst his conviction for conspiracy to engage in moneylaundering. At trial he pleaded guilty subject to a qualification that he had not known that the money was the proceeds of crime, though he may have suspected that it . .
The husband had been convicted of trafficking in cannabis, and an order had been made confiscating his assets. His wife had already petitioned for divorce and begun ancillary relief proceedings. She claimed that her interest in the house under . .
The defendant appealed his sentence for conspiracy to supply counterfeit drugs.
Held: The defendant need only serve the sentence if he failed to pay a penalty which the court had decided he could afford to pay. Appeal dismissed. . .
Four defendants appealed convictions in money laundering cases. The first defendant operated a money exchange through which substantial volumes of cash were moved, but claimed that he believed the money to have been honestly acquired.
Held: . .
The defendant had been made subject to a confiscation order. He now sought a certificate of inadequacy.
Held: The appeal failed. The procedure for obtaining a certificate of inadequacy related only to circumstances arising following the . .
The several defendants complained at the use at their trials of evidence given anonymously. The perceived need for anonymity arose because, from intimidation, the witnesses would not be willing to give their evidence without it.
Held: The . .
The defendants appealed against their convictions for conspiracy to launder money under section 49(2) of the 1994 Act. The appellants said that the effect of the decision in Montila, alongside sections 1(1) and 1(2) of the 1997 Act, was that a . .
The defendant appealed his convictions for robbery. He had been subject to a dock identification, and he complained that the prosecution had failed in its duties of disclosure.
Held: The combination of several failings meant that the defendant . .
Conspiracy to convert or transfer the proceeds of drug trafficking or of criminal conduct – confiscation order available. The statutory distinction existed between the proceeds of drug trafficking and of crime generally had now been removed, but the . .